W.J. Astore
Genocide? What Genocide?
A fascinating interview, well worth watching.
Suella Braverman is a Tory MP in Britain. Here she debates a student about Gaza and the ongoing genocide there.
Watching this interview exposes the playbook of Western politicians and the media. It’s about accusing student protesters of antisemitism; of getting them to denounce Hamas; of asking them about Israel’s “right to exist”; of starting the debate with the Hamas attacks on October 7th. Those are the “facts” that matter to the Western media and politicians like Suella Braverman.
Fiona Lali, the student here, does a superb job of focusing on the facts that matter: the roughly 40,000 Palestinians already killed by Israel, the more than 100,000 wounded, the millions displaced from their homes, together with the Western policy of covering for Israel while sending them more weaponry to kill more Palestinians. Those facts don’t seem to matter to the mainstream media, and politicians are careful to ignore them or to dismiss them as “necessary” since Israel has “a right to defend itself.”
Apparently, Fiona Lali is associated with “the revolutionary communist party” and is a critic of capitalism. Perhaps the British establishment believed that she’d come across as a crazy radical. As you watch the interview, you realize Lali is the rational “conservative” in that she’s trying to conserve the lives of Palestinians while arguing for free speech and a system that doesn’t exploit the many for the benefit of a few.
I hope Lali is correct that the majority of Britons are against sending more weapons to Israel, though I doubt the Tories in Britain care here.
It’s rather incredible that this Tory MP argues there is no evidence of genocide in Gaza and that the real issue is antisemitism and Israel’s right to exist.
Bracing Views 
Let’s keep it real and in perspective:
The real issue is that Palestinians support Hamas.
The real genocide is the killing of ~1 million babies each year in the U.S. via abortions of convenience.
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If the “real issue” is that “Palestinians support Hamas,” TJOSTEEN, how about this for a perspective?
Which particular Palestinians are they that “support Hamas”? Particularly among the Women and Children in the Refugee Camps and Hospitals? Or is it that ALL Palestinians; regardless of sex, age, pre-War economic status, current medical and economic condition, etc?
And how much CHOICE do You think the average Palestinian on-what’s-left-of-the-street actually, really Has on whether or not she or he “supports Hamas”? Any at all?
And i also have three questions i always like to ask anybody who proclaims themselves to be Pro-Life/Anti-Abortion:
How many Homes For unWanted Children and unWanted Children Adoption Services have the anti-abortion folks set up as real-world alternatives to what they like to call a “holocaust”? At this point, they obviously care more about the Fetus before it is born, than they do about what happens to the unWanted Child after it is.
How is forcing a woman to carry to full-term a Fetus that she does not want any different than Involuntary Servitude, aka Slavery? Wasn’t there a Civil War and a Constitutional Amendment that supposedly eliminated that? At least when it came to former Slaves?
But apparently not for Women when it concerns their own bodies.
Does anybody actually, really believe that outlawing abortion will actually, really end it? Abortion clinics all over the nation report surges in patient-clients from out-of-state. And for those who can’t afford a trip out-of-state, there are always folks ready, willing, able, and available to bring back the good ole days of the back alley “clinics.” Coat hanger, anybody?
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Thanks for your thoughtful reply J-Moe. The Palestinians (along with their Progressive allies) wail about what Israel is bringing to their doorstep, all the while cheering, aiding, and abetting Hamas. Until the Palestinians rise up against Hamas, the destruction will continue to rain down. They have it in their power to help make it stop. But they don’t. And spare me the argument that they can’t or are not able; they can…it has just not become bad enough yet for them to see that is the right path.
And to your comments on abortion, very few pro-life folks think outlawing abortion will end it. But it will reduce it, hopefully greatly. Just like with murder…we outlaw it, but it still occurs. But hopefully our laws minimize it. What a great thing it would be to save 900,000 baby’s lives every year. Not all, but most : )
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The logic here eludes me. Israel has already killed more than 40,000 people in Gaza while wounding another 100,000. Palestinians are beginning to starve to death. The Israeli government’s goal is plainly appropriation of Gaza by ethnic cleansing and genocide. Yet all of this is OK because of a Hamas attack on 10/7 that killed fewer than 1000 Israelis?
If you’re going to be “pro-life,” surely the lives of two million Palestinians in Gaza should matter as much as, if not more, than unborn fetuses.
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The vast destruction in Gaza caused by Israel accentuates the moral depravity of the present leadership in Israel under PM Netanyahu. It is shameful that the prestige Israel once possessed in the world is plummeting to a degree it is unlikely to ever recover from. The horrors that have taken place have provoked afflictions on a vast scale upon Palestinians in Gaza but these afflictions will also reflect back upon the Israeli people themselves as emotional shame will eventually make itself felt once they fully realize the horrors that have been caused in their name over the course of the past seven months.
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Can You explain Exactly HOW those Palestinians ~ the Women and Children in those Refugee Camps, Hospitals, or Schools, or the Men who have had their homes, businesses, livelihoods, and lives destroyed ~ can “rise up against Hamas” and have “the power to make it stop”?
If Israel doesn’t have the capacilty and capability to “make Hamas stop,” on what basis are You claiming that the Palestinian People do?
And so “it hasn’t become bad enough yet” for them, eh? Do You think maybe that when 100,000 of them have been killed and another 200,000 physically, psychologically, economically, financially, and spiritually maimed that That will be “bad enough”?
And just curious: What are Your thoughts on the fact that Israel created Hamas as a counterforce to the PLO?
And finally: What are Your thoughts on the idea that both Israel and the US knew that October 7 was going to happen, and then let it; so as to justify the long-held Zionist dream and scheme of a Palestinian-free Gaza Strip?
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And You didn’t answer my Question: How many Homes For unWanted Children and unWanted Children Adoption Services have You anti-abortion folks set up as real-world alternatives to what You like to call a “holocaust”?
At this point, Y’All obviously care more about the Fetus before it is born, than Youy do about what happens to the unWanted Child after it is.
But then no self-proclaimed, so-called “Pro Lifer” has ever answered that Question. Any idea why that is?
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“Palestinians support Hamas”: that’s like saying Americans support Joe Biden and all his policies. And did you know that Israel helped to create and fund Hamas as a way of splitting Palestinians into blocs?
“Abortions of convenience”: ever talk to a woman who’s had an abortion? It’s rarely an easy or “convenient” option.
If you want to focus truly on children being killed, as in blasted to bits, I suggest you focus on all the children being annihilated in Gaza.
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“Former IDF soldier Benzi Sanders was deployed into Gaza in 2014. He tells CNN’s Christiane Amanpour it’s a ‘catastrophic mistake’ to believe military power against Hamas will bring safety to Israel.” November 6, 2023 | Video | Amanpour & Company – PBS
“Ex-IDF soldier criticizes Israeli government over ‘catastrophic mistake’.” Amanpour, PBS, November 6, 2023.
He also stated on the record that Israel “facilitated” transfer of weapons, etcetera, to Hamas.
And it was strange how the broadcasted recorded interview with Benzi Sanders was cut off midstream. Right in the middle of his sentence, the screen went blank for a moment, then off to some unrelated material — quite conspicuously with a complete absence of the usual brief apology/explanation from the host when such an interruption occurs.
More so, the posted interview itself seems to have been deleted at the PBS source. When you click the link, you see a “Sorry, this video is not currently available.”
https://www.pbs.org/wnet/amanpour-and-company/video/november-6-2023-kbnqke/
Other source websites with the interview:
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/11/06/idf-soldier-benzi-sanders-amanpour-israel-vpx.cnn
https://www.msnbc.com/katy-tur/watch/-hamas-just-got-stronger-former-idf-soldier-on-why-gaza-incursion-may-not-bring-peace-196887109943
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“Like saying Americans support Joe Biden and all his policies”…not even close to true Mr. Astore. Unless Joe and Crew went out and raped and killed 1200 Americans and took another 100 hostages (wait, they do have about 100 hostages..the J6 protesters).
I do find it interesting that you liken Hamas to just another political party. Let’s have a cease-fire…they’re just another political party!
And I also find it amusing that you liken Hamas to the Democrat Party in particular. When the Hamas raid went down, I had the thought that Hamas is the Democrat Party of the Middle East…no morals, no values, power at any cost, by whatever means.
And to your comments on abortion, have you ever watched a video of a baby being killed, as in ripped apart and removed piece by piece, from it’s mother’s womb? Mulitply that by 3000, every day. Perspective.
I have talked to many women who have had abortions. Most are happy and relieved. Because they took the convenient path, not the harder, life-affirming path. To them I say: Next time, Woman Up.
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Hmm … I never said Hamas was just another political party. But if we’re counting up war dead, consider America’s wars in Southeast Asia. Or the War on Terror. Literally millions of people killed. Compared to the vast body count of America’s murderous wars, Hamas is nothing. We just label our wars as “legal” and “for democracy” while Hamas of course are “terrorists.”
Most abortions occur in the first few weeks of pregnancy. There is no “baby” to be ripped apart. And does a woman have no right to control her own body? Must she bring to term any fetus she carries, no matter her health or how she was impregnated? Why not just make her a slave, a baby-vessel, with no autonomy other than what you as a man are willing to grant her?
It’s easy to say, “woman up.” But how about “man up” for all the men who got these women pregnant? Are all these men prepared to be fathers, or at least to support their progeny until they reach the age of 18? Before abortion is made illegal, all men who impregnated these women should be required by law to give full support, including financial, for 18 years. I bet that would cut the number of abortions far more than any step you envision that’s targeted strictly against women.
Finally, if you look more closely at those Israeli charges of mass rape, you’ll find them to be disproven. And it’s likely Hamas killed fewer than 1000; many Israelis were killed by the IDF in the chaos of the moment from helicopter gunships and the like. “Friendly fire.”
You seem to have no qualms about the 40,000 already killed by Israel and all the children killed by bombs made in America. Those babies really were ripped apart by high explosive and shrapnel. But I guess those babies were all Hamas …
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Straight up comparing the number of deaths is a fallacy. Hamas intentionally targeted, raped, tortured, and killed their victims. The Palestinian casualties are primarily accidental/inadvertent, due in part to their support and proximity to Hamas.
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After 75 years of being brutalized and marginalized there are still those who “blame the victim” and project rancorous comments that are far more suitable to Israel rather than Hamas:
The following assertions are laughable if they weren’t so cruelly misinformed: “Hamas intentionally targeted, raped, tortured, and killed their victims. The Palestinian casualties are primarily accidental/inadvertent, due in part to their support and proximity to Hamas”
Perhaps you would do well to read some Israeli historians to acquire some context: Ilan Pappe, Shlomo Sand, Avi Shlaim…or read Mike Peled: “The General’s Son”.
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Huge, you sound like a naive, spoiled teenager camping out on the University Lawn. You and your compatriots here are oozing rancor….your hatred of Israel is palpable. Hamas and those who support them (Palestinian or otherwise) are indeed victims….victims of their own cowardice.
Let’s take it back to the actual thought grenade that I rolled into your little echo chamber here. All this is all still true, despite all your wailing and posturing:
The real issue is that Palestinians support Hamas.
The real genocide is the killing of ~1 million babies each year in the U.S. via abortions of convenience.
You are not doing a good job of convincing me otherwise, Huge. And you need to, if you want things to change ; )
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What exactly is going “to change” as a result of “convincing” You about anything, TJ?
And given our obvious “hatred of Israel” here, i’m surprised You haven’t brought out that time-worn bullshit equivalence of Zionism and Judaism, and accused us all of being ‘anti-Semites.”
Sorry TJ, but Your self-proclaimed “thought grenade” turned out to a major DuD, and about as effective as a popcorn fart in a high wind.
Or Israel’s attempt to clear Gaza of anybody who isn’t a Zionist Settler-Colonizer.
Have a Great weekend.
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Abortions are rarely “convenient,” TJO. And you seem infinitely more concerned about the destruction of fetuses than the massacre of real babies and children in Gaza.
To repeat myself: the only “babies” being killed in a genocide are in Gaza.
A question: Under your rule, should a woman ever be allowed to get an abortion? If so, under what conditions?
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And at the risk of asking another question that will be completely ignored:
How much control do You think the Palestinian Children, Women, Men, and Aged ~ in those Refugee Camps, Hospitals, Schools, Businesses, and Neighborhoods Israel seems to love to strafe and bomb so much ~ how much “control” of and over Hamas do You actually, really think those folks really, actually have? Or ever had or ever will have?
Any at all? And if they do: How? What Your grand plan for the Palestinian People to rise up and overthrow Hamas? Especially given the fact that Israel and America’s Military-Industrial-Congressional Complex can’t do that?
Any ideas at all?
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J-Moe I am not answering your questions because they are tiring and redundant (and also because I don’t have to unless I deem them thoughtful and worthy : ). You are spewing questions at me (an angry, misguided attempt at Socratic maieutics) because I shut you down on your abortion comment above. I am chiming in here with real insight, and you are just regurgitating unoriginal Progressive dogma. You keyboard warriors are tedious and tiresome. As the old saying goes, all hand and no gland. Try to think and say something real and original…that is what generates real discourse.
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To tell You the truth, TJ, i had not noticed that You hadn’t responded to any of my questions.
And do Yourself a favor and don’t embarrass Yourself by accusing me of vomiting “Progressive dogma.”
If You think i’m regurgitating Progress Bullshit, You apparently don’t know the difference between Libertarianism and Progressivism.
i’m curious: Do You know the difference between Your Holy Zionism and Fascism?
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And just to balance things out, here’s the question i like to folks who are Pro-Abortion and Anti-Right To Life:
*** Does the “Right” to an abortion include the “Right” to make somebody else pay for it?
On what basis is somebody who is totally against abortion ~ for whatever reason, secular or sectarian ~ forced to pay taxes that fund the provision of abortion services? Has that question ever been asked by either pro- or anti-abortion advocates, activists, and actionists? Or any politician, pundit, propagandist, or anybody else?
This question challenges pro-Choice folks to answer the bottom-line question: Should government funds at any level raised by taxes and/or debt be used to provide abortion services? And it challenges pro-Life folks to even ask it.
Particularly if the same argument~ that someone who is against abortion should not have to pay for other peoples’ abortions with their present and future tax dollars ~ is applied to other government spending.
Such as having to pay taxes to pay for an undeclared, unconstitutional, illegal, and immoral 20-year “Forever War.” Or the American Proxy War with Russia in Ukraine. Or the American-Israeli War on Palestinians in Gaza
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The answer is “yes” because it is a medical service and the government should pay for all medical services for people.
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First of all, Ezra: Governments don’t pay for all the medical services it provides. Taxpayers pay for medical services that Governments provide.
So the first questions are:
WHY should Governments pay for all medical expenses for [presumably, all] people?
And should it pay for ALL people regardless of age, sex, present medical condition, citizenship, etc? Or just certain people?
And more importantly: Where is it declared anywhere that it is one of the functions, duties, and purposes of Government to provide all medical services for people?
But most importantly, and like said above:
On what basis is somebody who is totally against abortion ~ for whatever reason, secular or sectarian ~ forced to pay taxes that fund the provision of abortion services by the Government?
This question challenges pro-Choice folks to answer the bottom-line question: Should Government funds at any level raised by taxes and/or Deficit Spending be used to provide abortion services? And it challenges pro-Life folks to even ask it.
Particularly if the same argument ~ that someone who is against abortion should not have to pay for other peoples’ abortions with their present and future tax dollars ~ is applied to other government spending.
Such as having to pay taxes or build the Debt to pay for an undeclared, unconstitutional, illegal, and immoral 20-year “Forever War.” Or the American Proxy War with Russia in Ukraine. Or the American-Israeli War on Palestinians in Gaza. Or the one planned in East Asia.
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And all Americans are being forced to pay for the mass Palestine slaughter via their taxes. The injustice works both ways.
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Americans are not paying a dime for its and Israel’s War in Gaza.
That’s what the magic of “Deficit Spending” is all about.
In time [to be determined, but probably sooner than anybody can imagine or will admit], the bill for America’s credit card wars ~ starting with its “Forever War” after 9/11 and continued today in Ukraine, Palestine, and soon, East Asia ~ will come due.
THAT’s when Americans will start actually paying for what their government has perpetrated and perpetuated over these past 22+ years since “the End of the world as we knew it.”
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Jeff, of course we’re paying, but not all of it. Some of the cost is deferred to the future via deficit spending, but not all of it. And every year our taxpayer dollars go to service the debt. And those yearly debt payments are now approaching Pentagon budget scale.
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Sorry for the delay responding, Bill. Was tied up and down with a Boat project.
Let me see if i can rephrase what i wrote and provide a bit of perspective.
On October 1, 2001 ~ three weeks after 9/11 and six days before the launch of “The Forever War” in Afghanistan and Pakistan on October 7 when “Operation Enduring Freedom” was kicked off ~ America’s national, sovereign Debt stood at $5.8 Trillion.
Twenty-two years later ~ on October 1, 2023 ~ that Debt stood at $33.2 Trillion [and is now $34.8 Trillion]; an increase of 572.4%, or almost SIX times what it was back then.
Which means that over these past 22 years, the U.S. government has spent $27.4 Trillion more than it has taken in in revenue.
So the Question is: Which Government operations over these past 22 years has not been paid for by Anybody, and have simply gone on Uncle Sam’s seemingly unlimited credit card tab?
And while we’re at it: How many so-called “Debt Ceilings” have been enacted, implemented, and imposed over that same period? The current one expires in January, 2025, and You will note that it has placed NO Limit on how much Debt this Government can accumulate in the meantime since it was enacted. Only that it will be brought up for re-consideration sometime after a new President and Congress are in place [assuming, of course, that Election2024 even happens].
Again: Which U.S. Government operations HAVE actually been paid for as they have occurred; and how many have not been, and simply put on Sam’s tab?
And like You said: Those annual interest payments on that Debt will soon exceed even the amount of money earmarked for America’s so-called “national defense and security.” Where is that money going to come from except via more Deficit Spending and more piling on that Debt?
What do You think would have happened if ~ instead of relying on the magic of Deficit Spending to pay for America’s “Forever War” [and all the other Cash Cows parked in the Federal Budget] ~ this Government had imposed higher Taxes on individuals, organizations, institutions, corporations, and the “rich”?
What would have happened if Deficit Spending was no longer an option, and Everything that this Government did or claimed to be doing was acquired only on a “Pay As You Go” basis via higher taxes for Everybody?
Do You think any politicians could have gotten elected running on such a platform over these past 22 years?
Do You think any politician could get elected today running on such a platform built on making Deficit Spending illegal and paying off that Debt?
And of course, the bottom-line, bullet-hits-the-bone Question is: When will the US Dollar no longer be accepted as the Planet’s so-called “reserve currency”? And when will all of America’s Creditors get tired of all the Bullshit, and demand that that Debt either be paid off or else the United States of America goes formally and officially into Default?
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Of course the deficit keeps growing, Jeff. My point is that we’re already paying the interest on it, even as it continues to grow. It’s wrong to say that all the costs are being deferred until some future date.
Believe me, we’re paying, in part because the deficit is used as an excuse to limit social spending, though never spending on wars and weapons, especially to Israel and Ukraine.
So, we pay in what we supposedly can’t do, like help the homeless and the mentally ill. Because it “costs too much.” Ha ha.
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i didn’t say that ALL costs are being deferred, Bill. i was talking about all the costs that have been, are being, and will be deferred.
Let me see if i can give an example. Let us assume that this year’s approved national defense and security Budget is covered and paid for completely by money the Treasury Department has collected. And let’s say that other Budgets of other Departments/Agencies are similarly paid for UP TO A POINT [including payment of Interest on the Debt].
And that POINT is when the proposed Budgets of those other Government activities are NOT covered by revenues; and that is when Deficit Spending begins. And gets added to the Debt. Those are the deferred costs i was talking about.
In any event, i agree with You completely about how Deficits can be used to prioritize what DC actually spends and doesn’t spend its money on.
Particularly when it comes to choices made between the well-being of Civil Society ~ including the homeless and mentally ill ~ and the Economy, on the one hand. As opposed to the benefit of the owners, operators, commanders, controllers, handlers, and script writers of the elected politicians, embedded bureaucrats, and anointed appointees of this Government and that system of Governance they operate, on the other.
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This is an EXCELLENT documentary……. time worth spent.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-11/the-forever-war/103574742
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Some people feel that a self-compromised or corrupt news media is better than no news media at all. I definitely do not.
With the Palestine-Israel conflict — past and present, but seemingly now more than ever — most of the mainstream news-media have lost much of their humanity and independence. Today’s legacy news-media know quite well what readership butters most, if not all, of their bread and accordingly go in that self-compromised editorial direction.
The most journalistically compromised news-media I’ve read is Canada’s National Post newspaper. It epitomizes an extreme example of an echo chamber promoting unconditional support for the state of Israel, including its very-long-practiced cruelty towards the Palestinian people. And I mean unconditional support. It’s eerily mind-blowing how far downhill it’s gone with the whole echo-chamber concept.
More progressive outlets like Canada’s other national newspaper, The Globe and Mail — progressive in regards to essentially following “woke” ideology — can be more deceitful and/or apologist in their pro-Israel coverage and especially op/ed writing since the 10/7 Hamas attack on Israel.
I feel that genuine journalists with integrity would tender their resignations and publicly proclaim they can no longer help propagate their employer’s corrupt media product, be it from the Right or Left.
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…. Not to be mistaken, I respect foreign correspondents — and especially respect/admire those covering active war zones.
But I still feel that much of Western ‘journalism’ is motivated more by a paycheck and publication rather than a genuine strive to challenge the big and bad powers that be: To truly comfort the afflicted while afflicting the comfortable in an increasingly unjust global existence.
At the very least, some revision of terminological representation is in order: While it remains “comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable,” who or what constitutes an “afflicted” and “the comfortable” has been altered.
For example, an “afflicted” of our contemporary news-media times needing comforting may be an owner of a multi-million-dollar home that’s worth too much, thus taxed higher, and he/she therefore desires tax respite.
Or, the new “afflicted” requiring news-media comforting may be the Israeli state when in the past it may have rightly been the Palestinians, as the latter resist having their ancestral lands gradually annexed and being cleansed from it, i.e. the figurative David versus Goliath.
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