W.J. Astore
If the Republican and Democratic Parties are virtually identical on most issues involving big money, like the military, banking, corporations, and so on, you don’t have a democracy. Democracy implies choice among many alternatives. We have virtually no alternatives. Hence this video by Briahna Joy Gray, which spells out a “Dem-Exit” in progress, as many Democrats wake up to the fact that the party almost never keeps its promises and is mainly engaged in raising money for itself and maintaining its increasingly tenuous grip on power.
Even worse, when other parties try to offer true choice, like the Green Party, the Democrats scheme to block legitimate candidates. Consider the case of Matthew Hoh, who’s running for the Senate in North Carolina as a candidate for the Green Party. I know Matt. He’s a former Marine who resigned in 2009 from the State Department in protest against U.S. policy in Afghanistan. Matt knew that Obama’s so-called surge wasn’t working and he spoke out against it. Matt had (and has) integrity. If only more people in the U.S. military and the foreign policy establishment had Matt’s combination of integrity, intelligence, and guts.
Matt gathered more than 22,000 signatures to get on the ballot in North Carolina (he needed 13,685), so surely he was easily approved because we Americans love democracy and principled politicians like Matt Hoh, right? Wrong.
The Democratic establishment did everything possible, legal and illegal, to block him from getting on the ballot in North Carolina. And it appears they’ve blocked him.
What are they afraid of? Well, they’re afraid to lose a bit of their money and power, and they’re especially afraid of a principled person like Matt Hoh, who actually believes what he says, and says what he believes.
Matt Hoh is a disabled combat veteran who ably served his country, who is indeed still serving it to the best of his ability, with a mixture of candor and courage that has won me over and plenty of people in North Carolina and elsewhere. And we can’t allow that! so sayeth establishment Democrats.
Blocking Matt Hoh from running is yet another clear sign of the death of democracy in America.
A short statement from Matt Hoh:
“We represent single-payer health care. We represent affordable housing. We represent living wages, action on the climate, etc, etc. And those things aren’t represented by the [Cheri] Beasley campaign [the Democratic candidate for Senate] at all. They claim to be for working-class people, but you and I know, the Democratic Party, it’s been decades since they’ve addressed the needs of working class people.”
The Matthew Hoh Campaign is appealing the decision by the State Board of Elections, which voted 3-2 against, with all three Democrats voting against Hoh getting on the ballot.
There is a mid-August deadline for Matt Hoh’s name getting on the ballot. It’s a safe bet that establishment Democratic leaders in North Carolina will do everything in their power, legal or illegal, to block him. Why? Because Matt Hoh represents the people; the Democratic Party represents the owners and donors.
Godspeed, Matthew Hoh. Thank you for fighting for North Carolina and for America.
If you’d like to donate to Matt’s campaign, go to https://www.matthewhohforsenate.org/
Heck, even I chipped in $100, and I rarely donate to political campaigns. As Matt said today on “The Jimmy Dore Show,” people are being brutalized by America’s political system. If we keep simply voting Democrat or Republican, all we’re doing is “perpetuating a deadly status quo.”
Time to try real democracy. Time to vote for candidates like Matthew Hoh.
Bracing Views 
That you can block anyone from running for Congress tells you all you need to know about American democracy eh Lt. Col. The rest of the World looks on and shakes their head in disbelieve. The fact is, with his platform, Mathew would be supported by 80% of the American people.
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Yes, yes, and yes, Dennis.
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As I understand it New Zealand also has two main parties: National and Labor. Having just two parties normally leads to electoral stability. Having lots of parties in a parliamentary system can enable people to more closely vote for candidates who better reflects their views but at the cost of stability. Look at Italy for a prime example. Every Scylla has its Charybdis, as they say. Or more colloquially, there’s a ditch on both sides of the road.
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Morning Alex, there are five parliamentary parties in the 53rd NZ Parliament. These are the Act Party, Green Party, Labour Party, National Party and Te Paati Māori Party.
Wiki – Following the 2017 general election held on 23 September, the New Zealand First party held the balance of power between the sitting centre-right National Party government, and the left bloc of the Labour and Green parties. Following negotiations with the two major parties, New Zealand First leader Winston Peters announced on 19 October 2017 that his party would form a coalition government with Labour.[1] That same day, Green Party leader James Shaw announced that his party would give confidence and supply support to the 55-seat Labour–NZ First government.[2] The Greens’ support, plus the coalition, resulted in 63 seats to National’s 56—enough to ensure that Ardern maintained the confidence of the House.
Three years later, Labour went on to a landslide victory in the 2020 general election with 50% of the vote and 65 seats, an outright majority of the 120 seats in the House.[3]
New Zealand has always had many Parties – and always had a stable Parliament. Comparing NZ with historically shambolic Italy is a non sequi·tur.
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I’m less familiar with parliamentary systems of government so thanks for the info. Although it does sound like parliamentary systems tend to lead to coalition governments, which sort of reduces them to two parties. The ins and the outs.
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We save this discussion for another time Alex. It’s way off topic here.
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Your first sentence is the money quote, Dennis. Spot on!
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Biden was recently asked how long fuel prices will be elevated and he said as long as it takes for Ukraine to win. Apparently he has only one member of his constituency: Volodymyr Zelenskyy. A big shout out to those people who saddled us with this man. (sarc)
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He should’ve just said “forever,” then.
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Or more exactly: “Forever – suckers!” (insert evil cackle)
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…If he were accustomed to forthrightness.
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You saw this in anti-war dot com eh Alex? You Americans are going to be paying $6.00/gallon for gas for a long time I’m afraid. ( We Kiwis are paying NZ$3.00/liter = $12.00/gallon!)
“On the final day of the NATO summit in Madrid, June 30, President Biden declared that the US and NATO will support Ukraine for ‘as long as it takes’ for Kyiv to win its war against Russia. He also said that his administration will be announcing a new $800 million weapons package for Ukraine in the coming days.
“We are going to stick with Ukraine and all of the Alliance is going to stick with Ukraine as long as it takes to, in fact, make sure that they are not defeated by… Russia,” Biden said at a press conference.
When asked how long Americans should expect to pay high gas prices that have spiked as a result of his sanctions on Russia, Biden also said for “as long as it takes” so Russia cannot “defeat Ukraine.”
As Russia is making more money from oil sales now than it was before the war, the US is looking at ways to hamper Moscow’s profits while not causing another spike in prices.”
https://news.antiwar.com/2022/06/30/biden-says-us-will-support-ukraine-for-as-long-as-it-takes-to-win-war/
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Jeez Joe Biden is clueless!
“I suggested a while ago that what we should consider doing is putting a cap on the amount of money that… the world would pay for Russian oil,” Biden told reporters. He said that he delegated a team to “sit down and work out that mechanism” for the price cap. “We think it can be done,” he said.
Swedish bank analysts are warning that the price cap could bring oil prices to over $200 per barrel. Russia could respond to the policy by cutting off Western countries that are still purchasing Russian oil, which would drive gas prices even higher in Europe.”
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Biden is in fantasy land. “We think it can be done.” Sure sure sure.
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But he’s busy Alex. Next week he is going to give the Medal of Freedom to a dead person! John McCain.
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Here’s better idea: lets steal oil from Libya – another country we illegally over threw!
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Looks like that NATO intervention worked! Where do I fill up? (sarc)
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Be honest, now (as Europeans say when they want you to agree with them): fuel prices have been elevated since the first Arab Oil Embargo back in ’73.
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I emigrated to the US in 1974 Bill. My new Californian wife’s parents were living in Arkansas then. They bought us a brand new Buick Century 350 for $3,057 for a wedding gift. And we drove from Little Rock to LA on I40 in the last stages of the embargo – buying gas at the shocking price, to Americans, of $0.53 per gallon.
Adjusted for inflation $0.53 in 1974 is equivalent in buying power to $3.11 today. Today my kids are telling me they paid $5.54 for premium in Madison WI. Conclude from that what you want.
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Two dollars a gallon a year ago. Less when Biden took office the previous January.
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It’s a competition thing. Hoh would compete for voters who would normally vote Democrat so the Democratic Party will try their best to keep him off the ballot. If he gets on the ballot they will call him a “spoiler” which means he might prevent them from winning a seat that belongs to them in the same way that Wales belongs to the Duke of Wales. So what we have here is royalty except that we don’t say “Your Majesty” quite so much.
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Yes. I was thinking of the irony of this decision as July 4th approaches.
We replaced an aristocracy based on bloodlines with a corporatocracy based on money. Progress!
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Lt. Col maybe one of your readers can explain to us how an unelected group of 5-people, the North Carolina State Board of Elections*, can have the right to decide who can run for Congress. I guess its a North Carolina State Law. Doesn’t this indicate a system that is systemically flawed? And the fact that all three Democrats voting against Hoh getting on the ballot indicate that this Board is corrupt? Just wondering.
*I notice they have an extensive Website. https://www.ncsbe.gov/candidates/running-office
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Somebody better informed than I am can address this.
My WAG: It’s designed this way to protect whichever major party is in power at a particular time, while denying any serious challenges to the duopoly.
In short, a rigged system.
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Pretty much. The two parties run against each other, at least theoretically, so “fairness” means any such committee is composed of a mixture of the two. It’s like saying who is to guard the hen house? The grey fox or the red fox? Why one of each, naturally. That seems fair. Well, maybe not for the hens.
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The fact that the Board Members need to be either a declared Democrat, or a declared Republican maybe shows that a third party candidate will never be able to be approved by this Board. Rigged for sure eh?
I did not see Matt today on the Jimmy Dore show. Do you have a link please Lt.Col?
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I watched it “live,” Dennis. The link will probably come tomorrow.
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Hmmmmmm…
“For months, North Carolina’s political framework has been plagued by scandal—a serious case of voter fraud that rendered an entire election illegitimate; legal battles over gerrymandered maps and voter ID laws; and corruption implicating top GOP officials.
But none of that has come out of the blue. The state’s electoral system has been slowly sliding the rails over the last decade. In 2010, Republicans won control of the House and Senate in North Carolina, and they’ve been working to change the democratic infrastructure of the state ever since. Reynolds calls their efforts a “cancer…at the center of politics in the state.”
In late 2016, he wrote an op-ed for the Raleigh News and Observer headlined “North Carolina no longer a democracy.” Reynolds, who studies international relations, applied models he used for other countries’ democratic systems to his own state and found it “places us alongside authoritarian states and pseudo-democracies like Cuba, Indonesia and Sierra Leone.”
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/04/corruption-gerrymandering-and-voter-suppression-how-north-carolinas-gop-made-a-great-big-mess/
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“Due to the results of the NC Greens in the 2020 election, in order for them to be on the ballot in 2022 they needed to get 10,000 signatures to get on the ballot, the party had managed to get 13,865 valid signatures on their ballot petitions, thus guaranteeing them a spot on the ballot.
However in recent weeks, the North Carolina Democratic Party has been attempting to lower the amount of “valid signatures” the Greens can claim to have, through various ways to raise doubt. The most common way is to call, text, or email the people on the petitions and explain that Matt Hoh could potentially play spoiler for Democratic Nominee Cheri Beasley, then ask them if they wanted their name removed from he petition.
Not all the examples are as transparent. State Green Party Co-Chair Tony Ndege received a Phone Call of people claiming to be affiliated with the NC Greens asking him if he wanted to be removed from the petition, ignoring the obvious oddness that they would not know their own party co-chair. When Ndege simply asked why would the party want to be removed from the ballot, the call was abruptly ended.
Hoh has stated he intends to sue the state to get on the November ballot.”
https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2022/06/matthew-hoh-denied-ballot-access/
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A lawsuit won’t work. I’m guessing the judges are appointed by the two parties. Or they may decide the question after the election, in which case it’s moot.
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“During Thursday’s meeting, Green Party attorney Oliver Hall repeatedly pressed Democratic board chair Damon Circosta to explain why the signatures aren’t acceptable.
“I don’t want to get into the details of a criminal investigation, but I have questions sufficient in number to not be willing to vote for certification today,” Circosta replied.
When Hall asked again, Circosta had him muted.
Following the meeting, News & Observer notes, “a spokesperson for the State Board of Elections later clarified that the investigation was currently internal, and any criminal findings would be referred to law enforcement following the board’s review.”
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2022/07/01/blatantly-partisan-nc-green-party-candidate-slams-state-dems-denying-ballot-petition
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I hope that maybe, just maybe, this will backfire in Matt Hoh’s favor.
Sadly, I think the corporate Dems will succeed because they have the money and the power. And they have no scruples, which always helps when you’re committing a crime.
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Its sad Lt.Col, but the Green Party in North Carolina does not stand a snow balls chance in hell.
Who are we kidding?
Same with Jimmy Dore – not a chance in a blue moon!
The two corporate Parties just have too much power – you know that.
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So….they’ve taken a page from TFG’s book.
Gee, and we thought the Dems could never learn a lesson….
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I’m sad to say this but, the American system of electing politicians at all levels, State and Federal, is so screwed up! Who knows the truth about how the votes were tallied?
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Matthew is preaching the same message as you do Lt.Col over and over and over.
But will we ever see him on MSNBC, CNN, ABC or even PBS?
Not a chance.
The system is rigged against him.
I keep telling my doctor daughter in Madison WI, who is working her tail off and donating to get Democrats elected again, that she is wasting her precious time and money. Sadly, she a person with two medical Phd’s, cant see it. And is pushing back (almost angrily) at my emails singing our song.
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Dennis, I’m not sure what it’s going to take for the died-in-the-wool partisans (of either brand) to wake up to the fact that neither of those two brands value democracy nor represent their interests. They are each so intensively programmed to see that the other side is so evil that they must do anything to hold the others at bay. They don’t even have to think much of their own side’s representatives… just fearing the greater evil is enough for most of those i know.
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Yes. The entire system needs to be overhauled and reformed. It’s thoroughly corrupted by money.
But how we get there from here is hardly clear … and it’s going to be one helluva ride.
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Especially when the MAGAs have so thoroughly infiltrated the military and the police, after having achieved domination over the GOP.
Just read that the Proud Boys disrupted another story hour at a library, causing the event to be canceled. When the police responded to a call from the librarians, they declined to make any arrests. So children are not only becoming victims of shooters, they’re being terrorized by bullying right-wing nutjobs. What does that say for the country’s future?
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Yes Roger you have nailed it. WI is weird. The City of Madison, the capital, is super liberal. And being a doctor at the University hospital, my daughter is extremely liberal. And the family she married into is Democrat like you would not believe! To the hilt! They work hard for and donate big time to the Democrat Party. But the rest of WI is very conservative. So WI politics is a huge cat fight between the left and the right. To the point the in-fighting paralyzes any hope of the State government achieving anything that benefits the people of WI.
But what is my daughter to do? She won’t vote 3rd Party because she says its throwing away her vote and weakening Democrats chances. They always throw the Nader/Gore example at me. They are convinced that Ralph cost Gore the Presidency. So my lectures to her that neither Party values democracy nor represents their interests – causes us family problems. So we don’t discuss politics. And I don’t think this will ever change – and my daughter and her family will keep voting against their best interests.
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@Roger, @Denise and @Lt.Col,
Not to embark on New Zealand exceptionalism, but New Zealand uses the Mixed Member Proportional (MMP) voting system to elect its Parliament. Under this system, the Government is formed by the two main parliamentary political parties, with 3rd Party’s also getting seats in Parliament. It is not a first-past-the-post system.
As I told Alex yesterday, a discussion of MMP is not appropriate on this blog comment thread. But in a nut shell, under MMP, 120 MPs are elected to Parliament — 72 are elected by just the voters in individual electorates around the country and 48 are from political party lists (elected by all voters in New Zealand). It is a proportional system, which means that the proportion of votes a political party gets reflects the number of seats it has in Parliament. Also bought-and-paid for politicians are for all intensive purposes illegal in NZ.
This amateur political scientist thinks that this is a system that could easily be adopted in any American State – and it would result in breaking the two party duopoly. I also think it is a dream to think that such drastic changes will be made to the American system
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My daughters Father-in-Law was one of the original founders and financers of the Air America radio network specializing in progressive talk radio. And a great friend of Al Frankin. The station was on the air from March 2004 to January 2010. As all lefties are painfully aware, it flopped big time and filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy in 2010 and liquidated itself. And left the airwaves dominated by right-wing talk radio a la Rush Limbaugh. The family lost a ton of money and were devastated.
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Tell her that Gore cost Ralph Nader the election.
Then again, family comity might suffer 🙂
Democrats can’t just promise everything, deliver nothing, and expect voters will stay with them forever. You can’t fool all the Dems all the time.
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But it still leaves the question Bill. If you are going to give up on the Democrats, who are you, as a progressive, going to vote for and feel like you are contributing to positive changes? Voting for a Matthew Hoh, or Jill Stein is not going to prove anything. Why last time I voted in the US I voted for Trump. And then immediately got an airplane and left! LOL
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My personal policy is to vote for the candidates that I think are best for the country. Their political affiliation is far less important.
If I were in North Carolina, I’d vote for Matt Hoh. If in 2024 it’s Biden versus Trump, I will vote for neither. I will go Green or Libertarian or I will write-in a name.
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My doctor daughter, who is very smart, will tell you you are just wasting your vote. And you might as well just take the George Carlin approach – “On election day I just stay home!”
How do you argue with that Lt.Col?
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It’s never a “wasted” vote when you vote for the candidate who best represents what you believe and whom you judge to be the fittest to run the country.
I’d argue it’s a “wasted” vote if you’re simply voted for the lesser of two evils.
Why vote for someone you don’t believe in? What’s the point of voting then?
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I really think my kids sincerely believe they are going to change the Democratic Party from within.
Look at the number who were attracted to Bernie in the primaries.
But the Democratic Party oligarchs screwed him – and all those people who saw Bernie as a person who could right the Party and lead it in the right direction – well…were screwed.
But my kids hang onto the belief there is going to be a leader who emerges to lead the Democratic Party in the direction they dream of.
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I have something of an advantage here (“No brag, just fact” as Will Sonnett used to say), in that I grew up during Chicago’s “Daley Years” and, as such, am able to see how voting really works and have a better understanding of the underlying voter mindset and the fanciful notion of “an enlightened electorate”, part of which will forever be tied to the Great Immigrants’ Dream (GID) that “if you work hard, you can be whatever you want to be in Amerika.”
As my Old Man used to say, “there’s always a catch, Willie.” The catch to the GID is the underlying Amerikan belief that if you’re truly good at something, you’ll be rewarded accordingly, but if you aren’t rewarded accordingly, it’s because you aren’t as good at whatever it is as you think you are. So …
If your field is politics – and it has been reduced to a job category, like customer service or pet grooming – and if you’re really worth your salt, you’d be with a real party and not registered as an “independent” or affiliated with some pie-in-the-sky “progressive party,” because as the real parties will assure you, they are always looking for the best and brightest. (True visionaries are regarded as radicals by all concerned and get marginalized a la Tulsi Gabbard or reduced to a joke, a la Bernie Sanders, in a hurry.)
And here’s the other lesson of Chicago politics: People love reformers, but they don’t vote for them, precisely because they are what they claim to be: outsiders, which means they don’t know how things work, have no clout, and will never be able to get anything done. The righteousness of their message won’t sway Congress.
And in that sense, voting for such people at the national level is “a wasted vote” because the deck is stacked against them. Realizing this, the “enlightened electorate” ends up voting against one candidate, rather than for someone they truly support.
That said, I remain a firm believer you should always vote as your conscience dictates. Just don’t get your hopes up.
(Please, gentle readers, no tirades against Hizzonor Da Mayor or Machine Politics. This is about voting. Try to stay on point.)
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That’s not going to happen. And they think we’re dumb in “wasting” our votes!
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And I thought my brother invented the saying, “no brag, just fact.” 🙂
I think you’re right about this. Even when we get a “hope” and “change” candidate, he just turns out to be more of the same.
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It was the catch phrase from ABC’s “The Guns of Will Sonnett.” The immortal Walter Brennan – yes, Grandpappy Amos McCoy himself – played pistol packin’ Grandpa Will Sonnett who, along with his grandsons (if memory serves) helped clean up The Old West.
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I know my vote is “wasted” on Trump, DeSantis, Biden, Harris, and similar candidates.
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Just like me and my wife thought Obama was going to be the leader who emerged to lead the Democratic Party in the direction we dreamt of.
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Old tactic between parties, tyranny is to isolate people.
Playing us for chumps.
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EXACTLY, sir!
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Unless you’re in a “swing” state your vote won’t matter anyway in determining the winner.
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With you 100%, Bill. One of my friends calls this practice, “voting your conscience,” and I think that’s appropriate. As Jerry Garcia said, voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.
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“When you’re born into the world, you get a ticket to the freak show. But if you’re born in the United States, you get a front row seat!”
—George Carlin
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LOVE IT!
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“Republicans typically propose massive increases in military outlays, decrying anything less as leaving the world liable to fall into a new Dark Ages, with communists and terrorists destined to take over cities across America.
Leading Democrats, aside from a few bedraggled progressives, respond with proposals to spend slightly less, leaving a difference of little consequence other than to help them posture as peace-loving liberals. Joining together, Republicans and Democrats together push outlays inexorably upward. Such has been the case under the Biden administration so far.
https://original.antiwar.com/doug-bandow/2022/07/03/what-if-washington-cant-attract-the-men-and-women-necessary-to-police-the-globe/
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Ha ha. “Peace-loving liberals.” The cost of “peace” is roughly $850 billion and climbing.
Clearly, America is a warrior and war fighting state. Yet we largely remain in denial about this obvious fact. It’s rather amazing the power of propaganda.
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Haven’t seen these peacenik progressives. The only “no” votes on the Ukraine $40 billion package came from less-establishment (i.e. Trumpist) Republicans. As for spending, Biden’s historians told him the way to be famous was to spend lots of money and he’s doing so anyway he can. Some leadership. (sarc)
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“The Wisconsin Supreme Court on Monday denied the Green Party presidential ticket access to the ballot, clearing the way for municipal clerks to begin sending absentee ballots to voters.
Less than a week ago, the high court abruptly halted the delivery of absentee ballots across the state in order to consider granting Green Party presidential candidate Howie Hawkins and vice presidential candidate Angela Walker ballot access after the Wisconsin Elections Commission denied them on a 3-3 party-line vote. The commission has three Democratic and three Republican appointees.
In the 4-3 unsigned decision, the court ruled it was simply too late into election season to grant any relief. The court’s three liberal-backed members joined the court’s newest conservative-backed member, Justice Brian Hagedorn.”
https://madison.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/wisconsin-supreme-court-denies-green-party-presidential-candidate-ballot-access/article_4e80ee10-d054-5461-9d79-1bc84292b21f.html
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Of course the liberals nixed a Green candidate. If Hawkins had been, say, a Libertarian, the Republicans would have prevented him from getting on the ballot.
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Deny by delay. A favorite tactic.
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Lee Camp on this disgusting situation
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“Are you aware that if your signature deviates in the slightest from your official signature on file that you may be liable to being charged with fraud and may be subject to penalties including a $10,000 fine and a term of no less than 5 years in prison? Knowing that, would you like to withdraw your signature from the petition? Press 1 for yes. Press 2 for certainly.” (sarc)
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Hoh represents a double threat to NC Dems. He has zero chance of winning himself. But if Greens successfully get on the ballot and receive substantial votes then the Green Party may receive permanent ballot status, in which case there will be dozens of GP candidates spoiling the chances of the Democrats in the future. So the Dems will prevent this. A favorite tactic is to challenge signature validity. A friendly judge appoints a friendly panel to validate signatures. They go in a back room and hours or days later emerge with their verdict. Ta-da! Insufficient numbers of signatures since half of them were invalidated. No further examination and no appeal. The fix is in.
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Alex, I thought this was an in interesting paragraph illustrating the systemically flawed America system:
“As a result, green ideas enter American political debates only when Democrats and Republicans take up these issues. It is telling that major U.S. environmental groups started endorsing Clinton even before she had clinched the Democratic presidential nomination over Bernie Sanders, who took more aggressive positions on some environmental and energy issues during their primary contest. And although Sanders identifies as an environmentalist, he sought the Democratic Party nomination instead of running as the Green Party candidate.”
https://newrepublic.com/article/137924/us-green-party-irrelevant
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It will be interesting to see how Habeck and the Greens do this winter. They don’t like Russian gas, they don’t like nuclear. He’ll have to convince the people to like the cold and dislike German industry. I wonder how he’ll do.
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Have you read this article Alex? Interesting.
https://newsrnd.com/news/2022-06-30-robert-habeck-and-mistrust-of-the-greens-in-the-east.Byec9hMicc.html
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I wasn’t aware of this difference but it makes sense. East Germany is like our Heartland. West Germany is like out Coasts. Habeck has a D.Phil in philosophy. Not that I have anything against D.Phil or philosophy but Habeck could have benefited from a couple of years working in a refinery. Or digging ditches. It’s still not too late.
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Bernie ran as a Dem because he had no hope of success as a Green. The GOP and the Dems have a stranglehold on the political system. And HRC was no champion of the environment by any stretch. The Greens backed her for the same reason the Progressives ultimately backed Biden: the theory was that, once elected, HRC and Joe could be pushed to be more Green/Progressive. We’ve seen that that didn’t work in Biden’s case, and wouldn’t have worked on Hillary, either.
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My wife and I, and our kids, dreamed that Bernie would get a backbone and run as an Independent. And start the revolution. Sadly he turned out to be pretty gutless. I will never forgive him for caving in to the corrupt Hillary. For me, that ruined any chances of me voting for him in the future. Mind you, as a Green be powerless in the duopoly that is Congress.
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Bernie doesn’t want the responsibility. He just wants to spout off. Like an old beached socialist whale.
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“He just wants to spout off.” Bernie deserves a bit more credit than that.
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In 2016, I think Bernie feared that if he ran as an independent, Trump would win. And of course Bernie would be blamed by the Clinton campaign for her loss.
Guess what? Trump won anyway. And Bernie was still among those blamed for Hillary’s loss, even though he campaigned hard for her!
Bernie should have learned something from that …
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Agree on all counts, Bill. The worst part is that, had Bernie been given his rightful nomination, he likely would have beaten TFG. And the Hil-bots knew it.
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Yep Denise, but whether he could have achieved anything as President leading the “Do-Nothing” Democratic Party – I doubt it. And being deemed a “socialist” – he could never of got any partnership on anything from the GOP. And he would have had the corrupt Nancy Pelosi to overcome. Everything he tried to do would have been squashed.
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You’re absolutely right, Dennis, that he would have had an uphill battle to accomplish anything. One of many advantages he has over, say, Biden, however, is that he’s not welded to the idea of bipartisanship. And, of course, he’s not entirely owned by special interests the way most of the Dems are. He’s also pretty good at rallying grassroots activism; he has a huge network that could have been brought to bear on recalcitrant Dems. Don’t think he would have put up with anything like Manchin & Sinema’s BS, either. In 2019, he would have picked up reinforcements from The Squad. Together, all that activism might, just might, have accomplished something, especially if he took his advocacy issues to the public.
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The 2016 election was useful for Bernie. He bought a $600 K beach house on Lake Champlain. I’ve been on the lake. It’s very nice. Earlier, Obama bought a $12 million beach house on Martha’s Vineyard. Why are all these “the sea is rising” types buying all these beach front homes? Apparently they don’t believe their own PR.
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Ah, Alex. Don’t lump Bernie with Obama. There’s a huge difference between a $12 million mansion and a small lake house that cost 5% of that.
Bernie made some money on a book that was a bestseller. I think we can allow him that. He’s never profited greatly from public service and the guy is 80 years old. Doesn’t he deserve a fairly humble vacation home on a lake? Is the guy supposed to be a pauper living in a tent or trailer?
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Sanders has made a great living at the public trough. He deserves a vacation all right. Let somebody else be Senator. What kind of “socialist” hogs the power for himself anyway? I guess he wants to be Senator for Life. If he was President he’d want to be President for Life just like Kings used to do.
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Unless you’re just yanking our chains here, Alex, I’m at a loss as to how you’ve reached these conclusions…?
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Where shall we start eh Denise? Mitch McConnell. First got his seat in 1985. Wonder what his net worth is?
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Good point about Mitch!
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Google – Moscow Mitch’s net worth is only $35-million!
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Ah…a mere piker, then. But don’t forget the income from his wife, former Cabinet member Elaine Chao, from an international shipping industry family.
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Bernie is power-hungry just like most of the politicians in Washington are power-hungry. Do you see him giving up his powerful seat? Not on your life. He loves power. He clings to power and won’t give it up voluntarily. He is a part of the problem. I don’t find him admirable at all, no matter what he “stands for.” He stands for himself most of all.
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Could not disagree more.
If he were as power-hungry as you say, would he have thrown his support behind HRC, and urged his supporters to follow her? Would he be an Independent, an outlier, when he could have risen within the Dem party decades ago? Would he have agreed to forgo a Cabinet post in favor of keeping Dem Senate seats? And so on, and so on, and so on, ad infinitum.
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McConnell’s no better, I agree. Two peas in a pod.
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Independent? The guy who almost got nominated for President as a Democrat? Sounds like a Democrat to me.
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Already discussed, Alex.
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And no mention of my other points.
But I cede the argument.
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J.B. Pritzker (Democrat, Governor of Illinois) is currently the richest US politician holding office with a net worth of $3.6 billion. Pritkzer is an heir to the Pritzker family fortune derived from Hyatt hotels. Michael Bloomberg, former NYC mayor and sometime candidate for US President as a Republican/Independent/Democrat has an estimated net worth of $54 billion. I think we’d find almost all members of Congress are millionaires at least.
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People who are rich don’t threaten the rest of us. People who have political power and cling to power do threaten us. Hitler wasn’t rich, neither was Stalin, neither was Mao. But they killed many millions. Bezos, Gates, Zuckerberg haven’t killed anybody. Well that’s my opinion anyway. The problem isn’t concentrated wealth. The problem is concentrated political power. Politicians who rail against wealth are just trying to divert the rest of us from considering their political power. Very often they succeed.
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All depends on how you define “rich,” and what those rich people are doing with their millions and billions.
When money = speech = political power, you have to be naive indeed to think the rich are a benign presence and a non-threat. Rich people, and by that I mean hundreds of millions, even billions, have an enormous amount of influence if they choose to wield their money in the political arena.
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Yes. Money can’t be uncoupled from power. How do we know what influence Bezos and Gates yield behind the scenes?
As for Hitler and Mussolini, they had the backing of the bourgeoisie, so again, money = power. As for Mao, my guess (only a guess) is that his backers were “more equal” than the vast majority of the country.
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Generally, Hitler had the support of the industrialists. After all, he was good for business.
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Everyone knows the racing successes Enzo Ferrari enjoyed after WWII. Few know how the man stayed alive at a time when many were killed simply for being too successful or not dedicating themselves enough to a specific political ideology in war-torn Italy.
Enzo Ferrari personally transported local fascist leader Dr. Manzotti to a safe house near Ferrara. He did so at great risk and at the behest of the Partisans after Manzotti publicly denounced the Nazi regime. The man who had piloted numerous race cars tried to remain inconspicuous while driving a borrowed 1938 Lancia Aprilia saloon through the nighttime Italian countryside, his political dissident passenger hiding under a blanket in the back. Late in the war, any number of groups would randomly set up roadblocks to control where people could travel. Ferrari didn’t want to run into any of those groups since the mixture of allegiances he seemingly followed likely meant he wouldn’t get away alive, or at least not remain a free man.
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Money is power but how it wields itself through politicians depends on the structure of the government. Joe Biden single-handedly started our undeclared war on Russia. Jeff Bezos does not have the governmental power to start wars. There will always be rich people in every society. The only society that I can think of that doesn’t have rich people is North Korea. Surely we don’t aspire to that. If people run against the rich they will always have something to run against. So what’s the point? (rhetorical question) To stir up envy? (another rhetorical)
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But Bezos can buy politicians and military leaders who will push for war.
And Biden can’t unilaterally start a war, either. If Congress had refused to levy the funds, then we’d have no military involvement with Ukraine.
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Biden put sanctions on Russia. No money involved. All he has to do is notify the Secretary of the Treasury to get them added to the list. “Hey Janey, add Russia to the sanctions list. China too. What’s that? OK hold off on China but add Russia definitely.”
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Um….Lake Champlain is well inland…
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Connected to the Richelieu River which is connected to the St. Lawrence River which is connected to the Atlantic Ocean. Not that far inland as the water flows.
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But not connected with the “rising seas” concern.
I live near Lake Erie, which connects to the Ohio River, then the Mississippi, and on to the Gulf of Mexico. Half the continent would be underwater before my area would be affected by sea-level rise. Not to mention, the chronic droughts in the West are lowering water tables in the entire Colorado River watershed, for example, so….water’s gonna eventually have to come from somewhere.
Lake Champlain, same scenario. False equivalence between Bernie’s modest real estate purchase and Obama’s.
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Lk.Champlain is 1,424′ above sea level. Just saying…
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OK I yield on the Champlain sea level argument.
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The Dems stole the nomination from him by rigging votes in at least one primary, and probably more. The lead-up to the nomination actually somewhat foreshadowed the Orange One’s claims about the 2020 election, except in Bernie’s case, the accusations were true. It was made clear to him that he wasn’t going to get the nod. I was really disappointed that he gave in, instead of fighting, but realistically, what could he do against the DNC at that point?
https://www.salon.com/2016/03/30/10_ways_the_democratic_primary_has_been_rigged_from_the_start_partner/
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It’s not obvious why the Dems would cheat against Sanders and not against Trump. More likely they would cheat against both.
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Who knows when the Dems cheat? I have no idea how far they’d go.
My point was about Sanders—the DNC wanted Hillary, so they cheated in the primaries, and Bernie was outmaneuvered. Same as they’re doing now with Hoh. I hope he’ll succeed against the Dem machine, but not optimistic.
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Sadly Denise, Matthew Hoh does not have a snowballs chance in hell of being elected. I admire him for what he is doing, but he is wasting his time. Same with the guy in WI, Kanye West, who has been booted off the ballot.
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Oh, I don’t think Hoh has a prayer of winning, but he met the requirements to be on the ballot, fair and square.
As for Kanye West, a judge ruled that he was late in filing, and a panel of 3 Dems and 3 Republicans backed that up. Moreover, he’s a huge tRump fan, and he was trying to file as a Dem (he’s actually a registered Republican). Clear conflict of interest, not that that matters legally, as far as I know. Also, West is a total loose cannon, with an ego at least as big as the Orange One’s. He’s an equally sore loser. Whereas Hoh seems to be a steady, reasonable guy, West should never come near an elected position.
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Would the DNC cheat in the general if they could get away with it? I don’t see why not. Did they? There’s no evidence. While it’s well documented / proven that the DNC (and HRC campaign) colluded to rig the 2016 nomination for HRC (and in my view, had a heavy hand in 2020 as well), there is no evidence whatsoever that the Dems tried, much less were able to steal either the 2016 or 2020 Presidential election.
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While I’m not in a position to state categorically why Sanders ran as a Dem, I suspect it mostly had to do with the calculus that, if he ran 3rd Party and did not win ( which many political oddsmakers would probably predict), his candidacy would have likely added to a potential Trump victory. As his subsequent remarks made clear, his major concern (at least at that point) was stopping Trump… just as it was in 2020. I suspect he neither wanted to risk Trump nor be “Naderized” in official historical narratives.
I don’t believe the Greens backed HRC. See: https://www.gp.org/open_letter_bernie_sanders_supporters . It certainly doesn’t sound as if they did. They were in any doubt skeptical that she could be pushed to be more progressive- and for good reason. I personally always thought that plea, both in ’16 and in ’20, were wishful thinking that weren’t backed by what had already been demonstrated.
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Lt. Col., I failed to see your reply before posting my own here, which makes the latter somewhat redundant.
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Thank you Bernie for your strength, boldness of truth to the people, the reality of our government and those who take bribes from richest.
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Andrews ideas and platform were what the Democratic Part needed – but aaaah! he turned around and threw his weight behind Biden!
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I never trusted Yang and felt he wasn’t very progressive though he liked to project that. I think some of his positions (like UBI) were vote-attracting gimmicks, and I don’t think he differed at all from establishment Dems in foreign policy. He was strongly anti-BDS, anti-union, pro school privatization, and though he offered some language suggesting a valuing of diplomacy over war (in some places), he was clearly on the Russophobe line, buying the allegations of Russia’s election interference, calling it the greatest geopolitical threat, urged NATO action to support Ukraine, and called for greater funding of the State Dep’t., the very heart of the neo-con establishment that has promoted many of these wars.
In short, while some of his ideas might suggest an improvement in some areas, he would likely not differ substantially in foreign policy, and his is a very mixed bag.
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Thanks Roger. I see where you are coming from. I guess I was blinded by his UBI stance – no more poverty. But the rest of his platform that you describe I agree is pretty ugly. Hardly progressive.
Do you have any ideas as to who you would like to see run as Democratic candidate for President in 2024?
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Dennis, I really can’t say there’s anyone in the DP, at least among the most visible or widely-discussed potential candidates that I think I’d get very enthusiastic about, such as I was in 2015-16 for Sanders.
Is there ANYONE in the Party being talked about who is opposed to regime change wars/ interventions and in favor of a collaborative approach to solving humanity (and the planet’s) existential threats? Bernie had his chances and I don’t think he could overcome the severe disappointments (nor questions about his age), and besides he seems to have retreated to the safety of just talking about a fairer tax system and economic relief for the less wealthy; he’s gone along on Ukraine, Russiagate & seemingly given up on any critique of military spending. Gabbard seemed closer than the rest, but would NEVER get the Dem nomination.
Oh, how I’d love it if somehow there was a seismic shift in the Party’s power structure and priorities- towards the public interest; and that a truly decent, wise public servant could emerge within the DP. But I stopped waiting for that when I realized that having a duopoly representing private concentrated capital is itself a big problem that can’t be addressed by feeding either half.
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They better hurry up and find somebody eh!
For me, every one they have fielded so far is non-starter!
And if its HRC….oh dear!
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Another Ross Perot. A really smart guy with a lot of innovative ideas, like Ralph Nadar – who sadly will end up like Ralph did – with 2.7% of votes.
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Matt did this interview just two days ago. His latest thoughts.
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The curse of power for the rest of us is that those in power tend to cling to it.
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Lets end this thread today by talking about the left – and how disorganised it is.
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@WJASTORE,
In fact Enzo Ferrari spent many nights with his mistress Lina Lardi lying to his wife that he was working at his factory making stuff for Mussolini. The truth was he was making stuff for the Italian resistance.
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A Man for All Seasons
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Unlike Enzo Ferrari, I don’t imagine Matthew Hoh fears for his life opposing the regime in power. But the fact that he has a framed portrait of Julian Assange gagged with the American flag on his office wall maybe suggests that he thinks about it. And he is surely aware that Daniel Hale, the whistleblower and former military intelligence analyst who leaked details of the US drone warfare program to the Intercept in 2014, was sentenced to 45 months in prison.
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There is more than death of democracy. On fourth of July, people have to mourn…..
https://archive.ph/r5nmf
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Yes, it’s so sad to see yet another mass shooting, this time in Chicago.
We will see more of these. Violence, frustration, anger, possible mental illness, and loads and loads of guns.
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When I emigrated as a teenager from New Zealand to the USA in 1974 there were no, as in zero, shootings in New Zealand. The police did not carry guns.
Now, in 2022, all the police are armed and we have shootings:
“A man who set fire to a house and then opened fire on police is dead and three officers are injured after a standoff in West Auckland this morning.
One officer was seriously injured and two colleagues were hurt.
Dramatic footage recorded by a local shows a number of police approach the property, armed with assault rifles.”
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Yes, changes happened after a white supremacist massacred worshipers in Mosques. And now, Proud Boys has been designated “terrorist ” organisation…. great job by the prime minister.
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Dennis, I traveled to NZ (for a job interview) in 1985, I think. I found your fellow NZ citizens a very refreshing folk in general…never met one who was not at once polite, kind, civil, etc. I attended a footie, and the home team’s fans cheered good play whether it was made by their own or the visitors, and never did I hear a boo or catcall, etc. I would’ve accepted the offer (in the NZ Nat’l Gov’t) had it not been for a couple major (to me) impediments: I couldn’t bring my beloved dogs with me, and I then had aging parents here in the U.S. and a girlfriend in Finland with whom the relationship was not yet over. I knew that I wouldn’t likely be able to travel to either country very often. But it was still a hard decision because I had a lot of comfort amongst the Kiwis and the beauty of the country.
Do you think that the generally peaceful nature of Kiwis has changed and if so, to what do you attribute it?
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Roger, hear is a answer:
Slower, dearer, harder: Is New Zealand broken? | Stuff.co.nz
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Oh Dear try that again!
Roger, here is an answer:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300626919/slower-dearer-harder-is-new-zealand-broken
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I have family in Auckland and have been there several times…. first time in Y2K. I used to read scoop.co.nz and New Zealand Herald ( better paper than any here…. could read Robert Fisk ). I even found Mark Twain’s “War Prayer” there!
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0110/S00004.htm
I used to receive stuff.co.nz eNewletter but they discontinued some time ago. Yes, things are rough in ALL countries for different reasons specially during and after Covid but according to my family, NZ govt had the best safety net for ALL during strict lock down.
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NZ govt had the best safety net for ALL during strict lock down….I’m not sure about this now RS. After months of a very strict lockdown – the NZ gubmint finally gave up and relaxed all the rules – and now I think NZ’s statistics are about the same as the UK’s, who had much less strict regimes during the period of Covid. And our economy really was beat up.
I’m thinking now that these really strict lock downs, like we had, have not proven to be better health wise, and left us overall worse off than nations who did literally nothing. What do you think? (And of course putting the US in the comparison is meaningless because of the hopeless response of its dysfunctional health care system – but comparing us to the UK and Sweden for example.)
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Americans needs to campaign for the good that is going on in their country. Their media needs to help with this
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AOC is wrong here. We already don’t have a democracy.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
USA – 26th
UK -18th
Canada – 12th
Australia -9th
New Zealand – 2nd
Norway – 1st
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Botswana – 30th !!!!
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Depressing, but not at all surprising.
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“In the past 20 years, we’ve had two presidential elections in which the candidate with the most votes did not take office. But presidential elections are only the tip of the undemocratic iceberg. In 2014, a Princeton study by Martin Gilens and Benjamin I. Page found that the United States is an oligarchy, not a democracy, with policy driven by the economic elite and business interests. Furthermore, studies and polls show that majority public opinion on many of the key issues of the day — abortion, gun control, universal health care — is nowhere near reflected in public policy decisions.
It’s hardly surprising that we haven’t yet perfected our system of government. Societies have been practicing democracy for a very short time relative to human history, and we’re still working out the bugs and persuading ourselves to commit to the difficulties. And democracy is still a terrifyingly radical idea — as much as we rhapsodize about government by the people, we are afraid to trust ourselves and much more afraid to trust anyone else.”
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The 2nd paragraph doesn’t follow from the first.
“Working out the bugs” — ha ha ha.
We have corporate capture of our government through a process of insidious corruption by moneyed interests that has accelerated over the last 50 years. It’s not about “trust” and “bugs” — it’s about systemic corruption that has largely been made legal and that therefore has metastasized throughout the body politic.
And the patient, i.e. the American people writ large, are dying as a result.
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“A Democracy? I’m not so sure. Democracy was a goal. A dream. But dreamlike, it now fades into the distance. And we hang our heads like oft-beaten ragamuffins; more in shame than in fear. The price of indifference”
https://planetpov.com/2020/01/08/has-america-ever-really-been-a-democracy/
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America has never been a democracy. It wasn’t designed to be one, because the Founders didn’t trust the people en masses.
As Ben Franklin supposedly said, we got, “a republic, if [we] can keep it.”
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Guess we can’t …
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Dear Professor Astore and Dennis Merwood,
I have read a lot of the posts and their respective comments submitted by the readers. And I am now taking part in the conversations.
Thank you, Dennis, for your sharing those highly revealing YouTube videos.
Quoting Dennis:
I would like to add that the situation is far worse, because whilst Pluto has been demoted to a dwarf planet, the planet of America has already ascended to plutocracy.
In any case, it is going to be an arduous task to solve these outstanding issues, because saving and rehabilitating the USA aside, we also need the political economy of saving the planet. Yet the entrenched and insidious issues of plutocracy have loomed even larger, thus continuing to thwart many efforts mounted to save the nation and the planet. Social and economic polarizations can further exacerbate the issues of wealth, and such polarizations are increasing for the following reason: The USA is very much plagued in varying degrees by misinformation, disinformation, post-truth politics, demagoguery, plutocracy, oligarchy, ochlocracy, kleptocracy, kakistocracy, narcissistic leadership, neoliberalism and globalization.
The underlying opposition is not so much between the Democrats and the Republicans as between the rich plutocrats and the rest of the population. However feasible or unfeasible it may be, the Democrats need to (re)form their party to unite the 90% of the people living at an entrenched economic and political disadvantage in order to deal with the Plutocrats. In any case, it is going to be a very tall order for Biden (or indeed anyone of any political persuasion) to turn things around. It would have been much easier if some Republican senators had been far more honest and incorruptible, for they have been very greedy, uninspired, cowardly and lack criminal, moral and political accountabilities. It is all quite a big mess in danger of getting bigger still. Even a global pandemic still cannot unite folks in the USA and wake them up. Perhaps it will take an even bigger crisis to do so, such as a series of climate change disasters.
According to Wikipedia:
More from Wikipedia:
Also from Wikipedia:
I would like to conclude here by stating that the best and most dedicated amongst the likes of us are also inveterate teachers of everlasting, transcendental wisdom to save humans from themselves, their self-interests and their destructive ways. I often even have to coin new words to do so. The latest examples are my three neologisms “Misquotation Pandemic“, “Disinformation Polemic” and “Viral Falsity“, as discussed in my extensive and analytical post entitled “💬 Misquotation Pandemic and Disinformation Polemic: 🧠 Mind Pollution by Viral Falsity 🦠“. This post of mine has twelve major sections (plus a detailed annotated gallery) instantly accessible from a navigational menu, which can help you to jump to any section of the post instantly so that you can more easily resume reading at any point of the post over multiple sessions in your own time. The post can be easily located from the Home page of my blog.
One could indeed say that we live in interesting times, but often for the wrong reasons.
Wishing you and your respective families a wonderfully productive week doing or enjoying whatever that satisfies you the most!
Yours sincerely,
SoundEagle
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Dear Professor Astore and Dennis Merwood,
Speaking of the West or the US becoming (even more) corrupt, in another post, I have been featuring an exemplar of a politician, statesman and chancellor from China, who was so upright and unflinching in their integrity and honesty that if any of those USA senators had even just a fraction of his goodness and decency to perform their duties and to go against the former POTUS, the USA would not have sunk to such an intractable, dangerous and protracted quagmire. The upright character of this particular politician, statesman and chancellor has been immortalized in a poem, which is featured and explained in my special post entitled “Strong Wind Knows Tough Grass” published at
https://soundeagle.wordpress.com/2020/11/11/strong-wind-knows-tough-grass/
Even the courage and sacrifice of Matthew Hoh (whom I admire) would be severely dwarfed by those of the central character of my post. This politician, statesman and chancellor had been fired six times and rehired six times, and still he persisted in his upright approach and upstanding ideal. He even surrendered and dedicated his own lands, real estates and military power! If only many more people in the financial, business and political spheres can learn from and be more like the upright character that I feature in my said post. In my own words, this historical figure is the personification of enduring loyalty, integrity, bravery and forthrightness achieved with benevolence and righteousness, but without favouritism and transgression. He was certainly not afraid of being fired half a dozen times. And such a person would certainly speak up and oppose corrupt politicians without any fear of losing their job, reputation or life.
This special post also demonstrates that China used to be astoundingly and profoundly much of what it is not:
Yours sincerely,
SoundEagle
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True. Yet politicos of both stripes insist on carrying the pretense forward. “Russia is trying to destroy our democracy”…. “They hate us for our freedoms/democracy”.
As if.
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Great to see Matthews plight being covered on mainstream TV!
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The corruption is so obvious here. And the vote was entirely partisan by the board, not “primarily” along party lines.
I can’t vote for either major party in good conscience.
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Off topic:
Yesterday I signed up for Ubereats on my brand new all singing and dancing iphone!
Today, every site I visit on my laptop is inundated with Ubereats advertisements!
The internet knows what I am thinking, and what I have done!
Isn’t that scary!
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If you are scared of the internet, you just need to read about Google’s LaMDA interview….
https://cajundiscordian.medium.com/is-lamda-sentient-an-interview-ea64d916d917
Also, I could not respond to your question at 4.47 pm as there is no reply button there but achieving 95% immunisation rate against Covid and saving thousands of lives is a great achievment and can not be measured in terms of economics.
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@RS, the left wing (!) gubmint (and right-wing before it) is starving the New Zealand hospitals of funds.
The hospitals are desperately short of staff – and its not because of Covid.
Neo liberal capitalism run amuck!
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Neoliberal economic policies stress two fundamentals of capitalism: deregulation—the removal of government control over industry—and privatization—the transfer of ownership, property, or business from the government to the private sector.
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Nobody asked this guy why has it been so hard for people like the Clintons or Obama to see the obvious?
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Matthew Hoh is continuing the battle.
Here is the latest report on what he is doing
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And he is till trying.
You can’t fault the man for effort eh!
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Sadly, the Democrats won’t mind losing in court, as long as they keep Matt off the ballot.
The dirty tricks of the Democrats is another reason why I simply won’t vote for them — or the Republicans.
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In America Lt. Co. everyone can bear firearms. And in America not everyone can run for Congress. Is this what the founding fathers envisaged? I don’t think so. Showing what a f*cked up place America has become eh!
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As if either of us needed another reason.
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